The Coaching York Podcast (Reloaded)

Transcribed with AI : May contain detailed errors

Harriet
My favourite quote on aging is the poem Youth written by Samuel Ullman in 1918. I recite Youth is not a time of life. It is a state of mind. It is not a matter of rosy cheeks, red lips and supple knees. It is a matter of the will.

a quality of the imagination, a vigour of the emotions. It is the freshness of the deep springs of life.

Youth means a temperamental predominance of courage over timidity, of the appetite for adventure over the love of ease.

This often exists in a man of 60 more than in a body of 20. Nobody grows old merely by a number of years. We grow old by deserting our ideals.

Geoff
How do you feel about getting older? More specifically, how do you feel when you think about getting old? I don't know if you've ever thought about it like this, but there are at least three different ways we can think about aging. We have biological aging, which is the accumulation of cellular and biological faults, which eventually cause the body systems to fail. If that's your only view of ageing, then the whole process is a series of losses of decline.

But happily, there is more to later life than this. We also have psychological aging, how we think about the process of our journey through life and, as we shall see in the podcast, that opens up many different ways of approaching our personal futures. Finally, there's what I describe as cultural aging. Our societies create views of aging through, for example, definitions such as pension age and messages like, “it's important to stay young.” In other cultures, youth is a phase you might want to get out of because later life is a time of respect, status, wisdom, something to aspire to. My guest today is Harriet Kretschmar, who is one of our longest standing Coaching York members and also one of our international members. And in this conversation, Harriet and I compare thoughts on what it means to get older, why the subject is important to think about, how it appears in coaching conversations, and why it's never too early to start thinking about it.

Hello and welcome to the Coaching York podcast, Reloaded, where I'm very pleased to welcome my esteemed guest, Harriet Kretschmar. Harriet, tell us where you are, what you do, and what's your relationship to coaching York?

Harriet
I'm Harriet - Bavarian - based in Munich, Germany, and now I'm 66 years old, a member of Coaching York since 2014, and a self-employed coach for more than 20 years.

Geoff
So Munich, Harriet, I've never been there. So if I was a visitor going to Munich, is there a place in Munich I really have to go and see or something that I really should make a part of my visit?

Harriet
I would say the English Garden, which was a great expanse of green in the centre of the city and where you can relax. It's a wonderful place to meet friends and to have a little stroll. I really would recommend the English Garden.

Geoff (03:50)
As an Englishman that's certainly one place I can remember. Okay, so as all our listeners will know, the greatest coaching event of the year is the Coaching York Annual Conference in York. And it was at one of these events that you and I discussed doing a podcast on aging. So what's drawing you to this subject in particular?

Harriet
Yeah,

my father was nearly 50 when I was born and he talked a lot about aging, how to get older without regrets, how to age well and so on. In 1978, he wrote a book called Aging Without Fear. And I realized that he was as old as I am now, 66 year old when he wrote this book. And...

The topic of aging has therefore been with me since my early youth. And since aging is inevitable, it begins at birth. I think it is very important to deal with it and not to avoid the subject. I know you have a professional interest in aging that precedes your work as a coach. So tell me about it.

Geoff
Okay, yes I do. As part of my civil service career, I worked in a division which provided a cross-government focus to what we vaguely call responding to the opportunities and challenges of an ageing society. So amongst other things, we commissioned research and policy proposals into questions such as what makes a neighbourhood, a town or a nation a good place to grow old and on a personal level, what it means to age well.

To think about ageing is to think about the course of a lifetime and in particular that you get to a point when the time available is shorter than the time behind us. So how about you Harriet, when you think about ageing, do you have a big idea around which you build your thoughts and practice?

Harriet
I don't know if it really is a big idea. I think the concept of life consists of growth and fading away, which can be clearly observed in nature over the seasons. Now there is autumn, the fading away is very predominant at the moment. That's what makes life so precious. I regard this great suspicion the attempts of the so-called transhumanists to abolish death like

Peter Thiel, the PayPal guy in the States. So because that would also put an end to life as we know it, be it humans, other living beings or nature. And it reminds me more of the cyborgs from Star Trek or makes me think about robots. And I really asked myself, is that a future worth striving for? So what do I think our task is in relation to aging?

I think be clear about how you and me, we want to classify the process of aging as a time of losses, as Geoff already said, which may be true physically, but not necessarily mentally. I regard it as a time of harvesting, the appraisal and transfer of experience, be a mentor to others and things like that.

Geoff
You remind me here of a former colleague of mine, Guy Robertson, who worked with me on the Aging Society projects. And he wrote a great little book on self-coaching handbook for later life. ⁓ Harriet, you have a copy. Well done. I'll put a link in the show notes. Now, one of his core messages was that we need to root out negative attitudes towards aging and replace them with a more positive perspective. So in your own thinking, where do you start with that?

Harriet
I think it's very important to become aware early on what is really mine, what feels coherent to me, who am I and what do I want to contribute to the world and shape within it. And I like the quote from English preacher Maude Roydon who said, if you want to be a dear old lady at 70, you should start early, say about 17.

I'm not 70, but I'm striving for it to be a dear old lady or dear old grandmother. From an early age, we are subject to a lot of external influences, especially from our parents and other important caregivers, persons, teachers. So am I mainly fulfilling their expectations and not even realizing that they are not my own? Am I perhaps choosing a career that it's a family tradition but doesn't suit me at all? And that's what I experience quite often with coaching clients.

Geoff
Okay. Now it's interesting. If we think about some of the surnames in the English language, so surnames like Baker or Smith, and certainly when families and individuals were less mobile and one generation to another would be living their lives in the same geographical community, handing down the family business was quite normal. How strong is that kind of culture in Germany?

Harriet
It depends if you live in a city or outside. I think outside it's still quite common. But the problem is that colleagues of mine who have as a topic to help family enterprises to do the next step. Often the next generation is not interested in the enterprise, but still they have a kind of a bad conscience because they think I should do it. And sometimes they force themselves, even if everything, their gut and everything says, I don't want it.

Geoff
Okay, that's interesting. One of the ways I work with clients trying to see where influences are affecting them is I might ask questions like whose voice is having the most influence on you right now? Or I might ask who are you really trying to please? Can you give an example of something you do with clients or a question you ask which helps them answer the question that you pose, what's mine?

Harriet
As I like to work with the idea of the inner family system or the inner team, it's often good to ask which voice in yourself is asking this. And then we try out, there different ego states or persons who really try and then you can feel, is it really mine or who is doing this for me. ⁓ I think it's very important to have this ⁓ kind of weed out, peel the onion to find out what really truly fills me with joy and satisfaction. What can I really get passionate about? And not doing this to please others. As you asked in your question, who are you really trying to please? A question I ask a lot.

In the quote that you read for us to begin with, you talked about courage. There is a dimension of life where as coaches we work with people and we help them to imagine possible futures and to be brave in trying to find ways to attain to the things they want to get to. One of the things that comes up in aging conversations is the term we use for it, we use “The Nevers”. You reach a stage of life where you accept there are certain things you'll never do. So do you have any tips on helping clients to both be brave and ambitious in pursuing goals whilst being realistic about where the possible boundaries lie.

Harriet
I think the first thing that comes into my mind is a question. A question like, ⁓ let's assume that you would not achieve your goals or only partially achieve it. What would be so terrible about that? Who or what could help you to deal with it? With the thinking, the feeling and the willing about the situation. It's not realistic that I achieve this goal. Go into a dialogue.

I often try to work with the embodiment. How would you show what is the posture [which physically embodies and represents] I don't achieve my goals. And then can you change it somehow? Because often negative thoughts are bound to a kind of special body posture. So if you change your body posture, also the thinking and the feeling changes. And we try to also to work with gestures like to throw something behind you. Make the goal and throw it away. Good riddance.

Geoff
Just for people who listening, I was seeing Harriet literally throwing things over her shoulder. Just as she was talking. So that's ⁓ a very powerful way of exploring this.

Harriet (
Because it's very important that always to strive for a coherence between head, heart and gut. That they are in harmony. Because then you kind of feel a peace with yourself. You can respond better to the demands of the outside world. Then you can perceive when it is needed to set boundaries or take care of your own well-being. Then you can muster the strength to go about your business. And when you are in harmony, then you have the capacity to support your fellow human beings. And in a state of coherence, you don't feel the urge to hurt or dominate yourself or others or to belittle them. You can hear this is a kind of a mission for me. How can we live together without having the need to hurt us?

Geoff
So one of the things we think about as coaches is the work we need to do within ourselves to be authentic and credible when we're working with other people. Just wondering, when you were talking about coming to this place of peace and coherence, do you find it easier to find that as you get older? And are there some life skills that you really only master over the passage of time?

Harriet
I think that's quite a difficult question. I think it depends on how your life has been so far. So if I'm content and have achieved a lot, I think then it's not that difficult when you get older. But it's much harder if you believe that you have wasted your life. Unfortunately, I know some people who have said that to me. I've wasted my life. Now I'm 70 years old and I don't have any opportunities anymore. That's bitter. Then in this situation, the inner peace is much more difficult to achieve. And I think that spirituality is a very important influence in that case. But it depends on your beliefs. So if you believe, for example, in rebirth,

You can think, okay, I haven't achieved it in this life, I do it in the next one. Or if you believe in paradise or something like that, it's a great help. And then as an old friend, she died at 97, I think. She always said to me, “I can only ever fall into God's hands.”

Of course, you have to work on developing that kind of attitude. It doesn't come to itself and you can't force yourself to believe. But I think if you really want to come to an inner peace, even after a very difficult, not satisfying life, think only spirituality can help.

Geoff
Yeah, I agree with you. One of the key factors in enabling us to have a sense of wellbeing is a sense that we're part of something bigger than ourselves. And that's, I think that's kind of baked into us. And so when you talk about spirituality, I'm saying that just be part of being human, although we might think about what spirituality means in practice.

Can I ask you about your dad's book? He writes a book called Aging Without Fear.
What made him choose that as a title do think?

Harriet
don't know whether he choose the title himself or whether the publisher suggested it. I really have no idea. At that time, he was an independent public relation consultant for a large Swiss pharmaceutical company that manufactured geriatric products from ginseng. So he also traveled to Korea to visit the ginseng fields and things like that. And I think as a PR person he was suddenly aware that fear of aging boosts sales.

Geoff
Okay. Yeah. You want to sell something, you need to find a problem and then offer someone a solution.

Okay? Yeah, okay.

Okay, so just coming back and thinking about what we discussed, just a general question. As a coach, why do you address the topic of ageing?

Harriet
Not at the beginning! As coaches, we naturally work in line with our client's mandate. And I think it's also our task when we are really present to perceive what resonates between the lines and if necessary, to mirror it back. And the question, what do I actually need for a fulfilling and happy life? Sometimes lies consciously or often unconsciously behind coaching goals, such as deciding on a new job, leadership issues or dealing with conflicts. So I think it's for the coach to decide when do I mirror back something and when I don't do it.

Geoff
If you notice there's something going on and how the client is thinking about aging might be behind that, but not have recognized it, then you give them an opportunity to discover that or explore it.

Okay. We are going to take a quick break and when we come back, we have two coaching exercises. We hope our listeners can join in with and adapt for their own use. So see you in a couple of minutes.

[Break - Information about Coaching York]

Thank you for listening to this edition of the Coaching York podcast. I'm Geoff Ashton and I curate and edit the show. Coaching York is a social enterprise, a community of coaches serving the communities of York, North Yorkshire and beyond. We offer commercial and time gifted coaching, mentoring and coaching supervision services to businesses and other sectors. And if you're a coach looking to join a supportive, generous and expert community of coaching practice,

Find out more about us at coachingyork.co.uk. That's coachingyork.co.uk.

[Part 2]

Well, one of the things obviously we like to do on these podcasts from time to time is to illustrate a coaching approach. So I'm going to try one out on you, Harriet, and then you can return the compliment with one of yours in a couple of minutes. So I've got this from a lady called Jeanette Liardi, and it's picking up the point you made about finding a happy and fulfilling life.

She uses aging as a lens to explore this question. And whilst you could do this at any point in life, the more years we have under the bonnet, the more relevant the question becomes. So I'm going to give you four ways of thinking about your own personal aging. How would you respond to these? So to what extent do you ever say things like the following? here's one. So aging is a stranger. Getting old is what happens to other people. I find myself saying things like “I'm not old. When you talk about old people, you're talking about someone else, you’re not talking about me.”

Harriet
My first impression is I certainly never said anything like that. Now, it feels very strange for me.

Geoff
Yeah, good. Okay, fine. Here’s option two. Aging is an enemy. Aging just wants to take things away from me. I'll fight it off with everything I can. I'll have a healthy diet. I will exercise. I'll dye my hair. I'll use loads of makeup, have a facelift, inject myself with Botox. I'll do everything I possibly can to look young.

Harriet
So aging is an enemy. Age hasn't been a negative thing for me so far. I don't know, for perhaps with 80, I judge in another way today. I never wanted to dye my hair. I think I like grey hair - for healthy eating. I try to use creams for my face, but not exaggerated, because I think it's like it is.

Geoff
I'll come back that with my fourth option over here. Here's option number three. Aging is like an annoying neighbour. Aging is like that annoying neighbour who I occasionally feel obliged to acknowledge. During those brief encounters whilst I'm trimming the hedge or taking out the bin, I just have to accept the irritations of ageing, the aches and pains, the ageist comments of younger people. There's no advantages to getting older, but I'll just have to put up with it.

Harriet
I have to disagree because I think there are advantages to getting older. For example, more insight in how things are in the world. I realize less competition, perhaps because I don't longer need to compete with somebody else. I am as I am and that's okay. Children are out of the house. There are still things because I help my daughter as a grandma and things like that. ⁓ when I, sometimes I ask myself how I did all this when I had ⁓ a leadership job at BMW, two children, we lived away 200 kilometers from my working place. Okay, we had an au pair girl, but still I asked myself, how did I do it? And therefore my life now is much easier.

It's not so complex. I don't have to deal with so many different fields.

Geoff
This was the fourth option, ageing is my friend. I see ageing like a friend and like any friendship ageing can sometimes be challenging and problematic. It's also deeply rewarding in the many experiences and insights it brings and I will defend its honour and dignity when confronted by outsiders who threaten to diminish its importance and I'm looking forward to more years of this fulfilling relationship with ageing.

Harriet
A definite yes! But I like the line, aging can be sometimes challenging. That's true. I have some aches and pains with the legs and things like that. Okay. But in a whole, aging is my friend. Every year I feel better and better.

Geoff

That's great. And the thing you're making every night, now you're using creams and stuff your hair and the rest of it, that's cooperating with your aging. There's a bit of a challenge in the relationship. It's not so much fighting against it. You're walking along with it. And there are some things in life that I'm only able to offer because I've been on the planet for 60 odd years and so in that sense, aging has been a good friend to me.

Harriet
Mm-hmm. Interesting.

Geoff
Those questions anyone could explore at any point in life. All right, Harriet, you have something that you wanted to share with us. So there's an exercise that a colleague of yours developed. You can just explain what that was and then we'll see if we can try out some of that with me on the other end of it. So over to you.

Harriet (25:00)
Yeah, I want to introduce you to an exercise one of my fellow coaches, Georg Engelbertz in Germany, developed along the traditions of Moreno's psychodrama. So he is an expert in this and this method is called, or he called it, the future leap. It is best to perform the leap into the future physically. So normally, when I use this method, it needs about an hour, an hour and a half to have enough time and space. You really need space in your coaching, in my coaching room that the person can really make a leap. The idea is that as in project management, it's helpful to plan backwards on planning backwards, whether from the goals of the coaching process or a future event that is important to you or from the end of life. What steps need to be taken from a future perspective, not from the perspective of today? I think we can show a little bit of this method, even doing it now online. Is there, Geoff, is there a future event that is so important to you that you would like to examine it?

Geoff
Yes. Now we're in 2025, about two and a half, three years ago, I'd started a conversation with a cathedral in a pretty near where I live, Ripon, about running some reflective walks in the cathedral. The architectural art history is absolutely amazing. It has some amazing stained glass windows and using those as a basis for both coaching and more spiritually reflective questions.

I wanted to kind of bring the two together. So just this last month, as it turns out, we did a trial run, which seemed to go okay. So I'm thinking by about 2027, I would like this to be a more regular feature of my abolishing coaching practice.

Harriet
Okay, so in 2027, how old will you be, Geoff?

Geoff

Harriet
64. And how old will the Cathedral of Ripon be?

Geoff
The Cathedral of Ripon will be 1400 years old.

Harriet
Okay. ⁓ Normally in this method, one can ask other questions. How old are your children? ⁓ What government will you have? then all the things. Okay. Let's start with this. ⁓ I ask you to make an imaginative lea into the year 2027, which month? November? November. Okay. So I wait for you to make the leap and you say to me when you are arrived in November 2027. Okay. So Geoff, it's November 27 and it's autumn.

And it's so nice to meet you. So I heard that you had this project with this Ripon Cathedral. So where are you now? What are you doing?

Geoff
I'm very pleased the way it's worked out. Making anything happen in a cathedral is challenging because lots of people want to use the space. But the three times a year, I'm able to have a morning where I can run two back to back reflective walks, which are a combination of coaching and spiritual reflection.

Harriet
Okay. And how does it feel that you are, that you have achieved this?

Geoff
There’s a sense of satisfaction in that it comes together. suppose in English I might use a word like a sense of congruence or a sense of rightness in that it brings together for me three things that are very important in life. So my practice as a coach, which I've also invested in very heavily, my Christian faith, because it's an opportunity for me to help people who have some interest in Christianity, even if it's just a cultural interest. To point them to the spiritual teaching of Christ, a lot of which is misunderstood, cathedrals are a great way of helping to explain that to people. And it's also something I can do with my wife.

Harriet
Okay, so now it's 20... 2027, November. And when you look back, were there any obstacles to overcome? Or did everything go smooth in the last two years?

Geoff
The obstacles are the challenge of other people who want to use the cathedral space. And yes, there were challenges with having a date in the diary, which then had to be moved because some other event was coming up. Mentally, there's always the challenge. Okay, I'm going to run an event. Is anybody going to turn up? Are they going to engage with it? What are they expecting? There were people coming along who were just coming along thinking they were going to get a talk about the history of stained glass windows and other people who had had previous experiences of reflective walks and this was a bit different.

So getting through that - over the life course, there are skills that you have that you can draw upon. So for me, I am quite adaptable with people. I'm quite happy for conversations to go in unexpected directions. And so we say in coaching, you trust the process. There are things that you do that you can be pretty sure will work. My experience has been yes, that people have responded to the opportunities and have enjoyed them because it's been a little bit different for them from things that they normally used to do.

Harriet
⁓ Great. Do you remember a reflective walk, I don't know, in summer 26, that was very, where you said, okay, that's like it should be. So ⁓ an event where you said, that was a great step forward.

Geoff
Yes, so the cathedral says it's there to serve and to welcome people who are worshippers, pilgrims, tourists and heritage enthusiasts. And I had a reflective walk and a group had turned up and there was somebody in each of those categories. And so what that enabled me to do was to allow people the space to have a conversation with each other about the things that they will revisit.

And I came away thinking that's exactly the way it should be. So we've got people there who are learning from the heritage enthusiasts things about how to read stained glass windows. We had a pilgrim saying, I've had a question I've brought with me and this walk has helped me to answer that. And worshipers have said, yes, I feel more inspired and I feel deeply my devotion to Christ as a result of this.

And a tourist had turned up and said, I had no idea what I was coming to and I've discovered all kinds of things I never knew that I could discover in a cathedral. Yeah, so that everything came together in the right way.

Harriet
And when was this exactly? This special moment?

Geoff
Easter of 2027.

Harriet
Great. So ⁓ in the method, normally you would now ⁓ have a card with Easter 2027 on it and you place it in the room on your way back to November 2025. Okay. And then, so now you have to do it imaginatively to be on Easter 27. And I think you already were there.

And then we can explore which strengths helped you to have this special event on Easter 2027. So I guide you back. is there anything you want to comment on Easter 2027?

Geoff
That’s such an interesting word, Harriet, because one of the windows in Ripon Cathedral looks at the three Christian virtues, faith, hope and charity. And one of the things we talk about on the walk is the idea of virtue, which is an ancient idea of character strengths to carry you through life. So interesting to use the word strength. So what strength carried me through this? I suppose one of the character strengths was fortitude, which is combination of courage and perseverance and patience.

So the courage is, every time I offer myself to the cathedral, they could turn around and say, thank you very much, goodbye, we had enough of this. Turning up with a group always takes courage because you're never sure what's happening. And then patience because making things happen in a cathedral does take a long time because they're just such busy places and there's so much going on. And so patience for me was being able to say to myself, although this is taking a long time, this is probably going as fast as it can.

Harriet
So I have the impression that you are quite aware of the strengths that helped you in Easter 2027 to have this wonderful reflective wall with this crew. Was there any event or things happening in 2026 on this with the Cathedral of Ripon, some meeting with an official or was there?

Geoff
So there were two steps. Two steps. There is an official who is responsible for this area of ministry and they call them canons. That's their title. there are also a group in the cathedral who are welcomers and guides. And these are people who are sort of on staff. They take any chance just to be in the building. And as people have questions, they will just stop and ask the questions they were asked.

Harriet
Mm-hmm.

Geoff
And in the light of the first reflective walk I did, the guides and welcomers said, this is really interesting. we, we'd like to meet with Geoff and see what he does. That meeting with them, which involved taking them around some, some aspects of the walk that I did, it built momentum. built confidence for me. I learned some things from them, which helped me in my own presentation and the information I had to share, and just built a sense that the cathedral really wanted to own this and wanted to adopt some of the ideas I was using and use them more widely amongst the people who served there.

Harriet
So I have the impression that the welcomers and guides didn't see you as a competitor who wants to take away things from their volunteer role or something. Am I right? when was this?

Geoff
Yeah, very different.

So that was spring, May time, May 2020.

Harriet
May time, May time 2026. And with the cannons? That was January. that was January. And what was the content of the meeting?

Geoff
So that was a review of the first walk. From that the canon said, I can negotiate some time for you. So realistically, this is the time of time I can make. And we also talked about how the walk fitted with the wider work and the wider mission of the cathedral.

Harriet
Mm.

Okay. So as we don't have so much time today, I would guide you back to November 2025. So go back to today in the here and now. And now normally when you have it in the room, you can look at the cards on the floor and the card on the floor will be the meeting with the cannons to review the first walk in January 2026. Then the meeting was the Welcomers and Guides May 2026. Then you have the Easter event 2027 and then November 2027, where you said you are very satisfied of all the things achieved. So when you from here and now you look on this route ahead.

How, how, what do you think? How does it feel? What, did you take from it?

Geoff
I think the milestones are actually quite credible and realistic. And I have a meeting booked with the Canon in January. So I will take this into that meeting and have a conversation where it says, so round about November 2027, maybe we could be in this place. How would that sound? It reminds me of what kind of keeps me going through this, which is patience and to be quite relaxed that these are the gaps between the key intervals. think that's going to be very helpful for me.

Harriet
Yeah, and what I perceived is that you've thought about what are key people, key persons, which is very important to relate with them to have ⁓ this project flourishing. Normally, I always hope that this is an impulse that perhaps other things, tomorrow come into your mind about other steps you could take and things like that. So as a coach, how did you like this kind of tool.

Geoff
I like it. don't often use embodied tools in the way you do, creating space for people to walk around in, for example. I think something like this is even more powerful if you can do it with space because you can physically see distance between the cards, for example, and you can physically walk between them. I do have one particular client who has quite a large office. It's big enough to do this with him. I'm going to put this in the box to try out next year.

We've covered a lot of ground. We've been thinking about ageing through the life course, how it shows up in coaching, different ways we might approach it, how some of the coaching questions around ageing are actually useful at any point in life. So a final thought you'd like to leave our listeners with.

Harriet
The final thought. As my husband is very ill, I think a lot about end of life. And therefore I think we really need a kind of competence to quit, to know when it's good to end things, to get a good ⁓ ending to life. And in quitting and ⁓

in a sense of letting go, letting go voluntarily, not abruptly. I don't think you, not repeatable, unrepeatable like suicide. No, no, no, no. But knowing when it's enough. I'm convinced that deep down we have this knowledge when something is at the end. But do we really listen? I think sometimes we don't listen. You need calm and...

and the mindfulness and things to listen. When to leave a party. A game, a job, a relationship at the right time. think this is an art, right? To sense the demands of the situation. What does the situation require? And then act accordingly. I still have to think a lot about this. Competence to quit.

I think it's very important to learn this art. And I think as we talked about aging as can be seen as a time of losses, then there are these losses and how to deal with them in a good way. Okay, let's accept it. It's like it is.

Geoff
There’s lot to think about there. And just one last question for you Harriet, if you were still to write a book what title would you put on it?

Harriet
I don't intend to write a book. But I think that the title could be... ...Competence to quit. ⁓

Geoff
sound like a good one.

Harriet
Ha ha!

Geoff
That's brilliant. Harriet, thank you very much for your time. It's very much appreciated. ⁓ We commend our best regards to Germany and we receive yours for us. So all the best to you for the future - and to our listeners. Thank you and goodbye.

Harriet
Goodbye.