Career Coaching with Meg Burton
Hello, and welcome to the coaching york podcast. Here's a question for you. What will you be doing at 10:00 tomorrow? Will you be caring for someone? Will you be studying or fulfilling your vocation in a voluntary capacity?
Geoff:Will you be relaxing or working? And if you are in a job, how do you feel about it? How do you feel about where you are now and the direction of travel your career is taking you? There are various reasons why we might want to stop and take stock of where we are in our job or career. What are those taking stock moments, and what do we do when we reach them?
Geoff:Well, today we'll be exploring these questions and others with my guest, leadership and career coach Meg Burton. So Meg, welcome to the show.
Meg:Hi Jo, thanks for having me.
Geoff:So can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you are, and anything about yourself you think we might be interested in?
Meg:Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, so I'm Meg Burton. I'm, as you say, a leadership and career coach, and I'm based in up north in Leeds, West Yorkshire. I qualified as a coach back in 2015, but have probably been coaching long before that. And yeah, I offer leadership coaching as part of my leadership development solutions with my business Cube Learning Development.
Meg:And that's mainly through organisations one to one with different leaders. And then I'm a career coach, so providing career coaching and career mentoring along with redundancy support as Meg wrote in coaching to self funding clients.
Geoff:Brilliant, thank you. And it's nice to talk to somebody else who's actually in Leeds. Yeah. But just a general question to start with, Meg. If I was to ask what does coaching mean to you?
Geoff:What does coaching mean to you?
Meg:I think coaching is all about for me helping others. And I think it's about being a sounding board, being somebody there as a sort of partner and working with someone to help them achieve whatever goals that is that they're working on or whatever challenges they're navigating. And it's been that sort of partner working alongside that with an individual to help them achieve what it is that they're working on.
Geoff:Okay. And you were involved in leadership and in career coaching. So what was it in particular about career coaching that attracted you?
Meg:So I think it kind of comes from that helping people. So from, you know, I've always had this, I think, a desire to have a role whereby I was helping people in some way, shape, or form. And that ultimately led me to my earlier career in a learning and development role in an organization. And, I found that in that role, people used to come to me for help and advice when they were either going for a promotion or a change of role. And I found that bit really enjoyable.
Meg:I loved helping people sort of achieve their potential and unlock what they were capable of. I think that first ignited that interest and that passion to do something linked to that.
Geoff:Obviously in an organisational context there's certain constraints you work to, there's a culture that you've got, there's some resources available. What kind of help were you giving people in that context?
Meg:Yeah, so it was really when people were going for internal promotions and they were having to go through maybe an interview process. Often there were people who hadn't really thought about their career tools, know, their CV, their application process, their interview process. And interestingly, as internal candidates, they often used to undersell themselves. So sometimes maybe we were at risk of losing out an opportunity to an external client because they're not quite thoroughly prepared. So that's kind of where it came about really.
Meg:And people, I think through meeting me through like delivering learning development courses and training leadership training, know, they kind of naturally said, oh, can you help? And I just sort of, I loved being part of that journey with them and then seeing them succeed was really, really rewarding.
Geoff:Okay. Somebody thinking about a promotion or a career change, they've got colleagues they can talk to, they've got line managers, they've seen you as a trainer and as a presenter. Who were you to them, would you say?
Meg:I think it's that objective person whereby I can I'm in that unique position to be able to ask questions, to maybe challenge their thinking sometimes without it coming from any other agenda. So I'm very neutral, Got no personal needs from them in that relationship. Yeah. Maybe as well, know, just I think I have a very sort of warm, natural style with people. So I love building rapport with people.
Meg:I think I can build high levels of trust. I think people feel safe and it's a confidential space when they shared it with me so they could maybe be a bit vulnerable, you know, and say what they were struggling with.
Geoff:So you've got experience of working in an organisation, you've got practical skills there, you've got your own interpersonal skills and experience, and then you decided you wanted to do a coaching qualification. So what did you want to do and what's that given you?
Meg:Yes, initially, when I first started, so going right back to when I was doing this kind of work, I did some my initial coaching qualifications, I did one in performance coaching, I think it was back in the day, I think it was with Newcastle College. I think it was something like level three or something like that. And that was really focused on performance coaching, so helping people in their roles. I also did some in life coaching then as well, some qualifications and again level three kind of stuff. That kind of ignited my interest.
Meg:And then having then worked, moved into some more leadership development work, I started to develop my interest in coaching at that sort of higher leadership level. And then that's when I, in 2015, did my first ILM level seven qualification in coaching. And I think what that did really was it gave me a lot of confidence I think around the process that I was using. It deepened my skills and the opportunity to enhance my capabilities as a coach as well, learning much more about wider theory and also getting the sort of practical skills through that qualification was really, really useful.
Geoff:You help people with their own career transitions. And to some extent, you could speak from experience having had career transitions of your own. What in particular has helped you navigate your own transitions in terms of your own career?
Meg:You know, I've been through a number of career moves throughout my own career and particularly one significant one was when I worked in my last role within corporate world was when I was made redundant. So I actually took voluntary redundancy to lead the organisation. But it was an organisation I'd worked with for a long time, for fifteen years, and I loved it. I loved my job. I loved the company.
Meg:So it was quite an emotional change for me. And I remember how difficult that was and how it felt navigating that change and the emotions that you go through when you're going through a significant change like that. And also then balancing the decisions, you know. So at the time I had a young family. So balancing the decisions between, you know, is it the right move?
Meg:Am I doing the right thing? The anxiety that comes with that was really tough. So I bring that experience when I'm helping other clients as well. And similarly then before that, you know, other transitions have been so going for promotion, making sideways moves. And also before that, I transitioned from a would you believe I, my first job was in insurance, which seems like a long time ago.
Meg:I then moved into the company I worked for initially. I started off in IT, which people sometimes laugh at now because I'm not the most technically adept person. Before I then made the career change into learning and development. So you know there were a few steps before I found where I felt at home and where I felt actually this is a role where I can thrive.
Geoff:A lot of interesting things in there. So you've talked about a career change involving an emotional journey as well as a practical one. You talked about having to think about various trade offs in terms of, well, I've got the job, but there's other things happening in life. And then you said, you may be going down a particular career path, realize it's not for you, and then you can carry on and do something else. So when your clients are coming to you now, what kind of things are motivating them to come to you?
Meg:A lot of my clients often come when they feel they're in a bit of a crossroads. Often like if I get an email or a call, that's often the language that people use or often they're feeling stuck, know. So they may be feel like they're stuck in a job sometimes that they no longer love anymore. They no longer enjoying it. They They can often be feeling quite lost in terms of actually, I don't know what to do next.
Meg:I don't know what direction to go in. I don't know what I want to do with my life, which sounds like a very big statement doesn't it? But it's often a feeling that something's not quite right. So in terms of it's not giving them what they need in terms of their role. Or it can be a change, you know, like obviously a force change, so like Redundancy, whereby something's changing in their workplace or in their role, that means that actually it's no longer the right fit for them or it's a more organised restructure or something like that.
Meg:And I think what they come to me for is that sounding board. I think it's that support to help them through the decisions that they're making and to work through those emotions as they go through that transition and change.
Geoff:So they might have a roadblock, a crossroads, an earning platform. We can play around with the metaphors as we see fit. So you said that people are coming to you and they're looking for a sounding board. When they actually come to you, is that what they're looking for? Or do they come to you thinking there's something that they want?
Geoff:Meg, can you tell me what to do? I need some answers. And then they discover that actually there's something else that they need. So what's the difference between what they want and what they need?
Meg:Yeah, sometimes I do have to have that conversation. I think I talk about how, you know, I don't have a magic wand, know. I'm good, but I'm not good. I can't, some people do come with expectations. So you'll be able to tell me what to do with my life.
Meg:Ultimately, you know, you'll have known yourself for, you know, at least maybe twenty years, and I've known you for an hour or so. I'm not gonna be able to do that. But I think what they quickly realize is that I'm helping them to think through their own thoughts and their own feelings and to help them evaluate those with some support. So rather than those thoughts just been mulling around in their mind, it's a process to help them see those and work through those. So often, like, you know, when I'll send reflections to them afterwards, people will be quite surprised reading back maybe what they've said and what they've shared.
Meg:And I think that's really, really powerful, but kind of I manage expectations. I'm not going to be able to just tell you what to do, But certainly I can help you explore those thoughts and feelings to find a way forward and find some clarity and some, you know, and equally it might be still trying, trying and failing at some things. Might be, let's go try this route and see if that works. And if it doesn't, then we try something different. But there's not going to be a super fix.
Geoff:Yeah. And that's one of the thoughts that came to mind. So you used the word just in passing, you used the word process. I mean, to what extent are you working through a process and to what extent are you creating a framework for exploration?
Meg:Yeah, so it's a bit of both really. Through the work that I do, there's two parts to it really. So there's the career exploration side, which is much more pure coaching, which is much more where I'm asking questions, facilitating the coachee's thinking, getting them to reflect, getting them to go deep in terms of understanding what their strengths are, understanding their true drivers or their motivators, and getting them to really kind of connect with those to think about where will those strengths enable them in a future role. To then more of a career mentoring side whereby I am guiding them and advising them around maybe some more of the career tools. So thinking about their CV, their applications, their preparation for interviews.
Meg:So helping them to master those and be at their best when they actually go through the application process for that role that they've decided to go for.
Geoff:Okay. So we've got a framework for thinking, talked about the emotional journey. There's a lot of practical things in there, as you say, which can help people really sell themselves at their best, not undersell themselves. I can still remember one or two of my own career transitions. Do you want to use me as a bit of a guinea pig?
Geoff:So let's say I'm coming to you and say, Meg, I'm thinking about change of career. I've got some vague ideas about it. Let's say it's reasonably within my own control because I'm not in a burning platform situation. Where would you start with me? What kind of things would you do to help me think through this particular phase of my life and career?
Meg:Yeah, why not? Let's have a go, let's go So to the yeah, why not? So first of all, I'd want you just to share a little bit with me about your background and your career story that led you to this point that you're in now. So tell me a bit about that.
Geoff:All right. So I'm imagining myself back at a point when I was in the career process. All right, so I'm working in a government department. And as we all know, what government departments do, what they're focused on, changes very much depending on who's in power. So having been in a number of years working in an environment which was very creative and transformational in some respects.
Geoff:We then had a change of administration where the concern was very much about let's try and spend as little money as possible. The policy reasons for this are really not my business as a civil servant. My job is to try and help whatever administration I've got to fulfill its objectives. But within that, I then started thinking about, so what am I actually doing here? I've got one life.
Geoff:I could spend the next ten years or so of my life managing my inner frustration because all the kind of creative stuff I want to do, I can't do anymore. And I think I've got a bit more to offer. And I'm in a context or an environment where I don't think I can do that. And so that's the kind of thing I'm thinking about. What have I got to offer the world and where can I do it?
Meg:Yeah, brilliant. So again, I'm hearing there that you were thinking, you know, those big questions. What am I doing with my life? Said big question isn't it? But that feeling of actually something's not quite right you know anymore and for whatever reason that you know that change in administration you start to feel that the fit was no longer the right one for you.
Meg:Okay, When you when you were back then, then what what thoughts and feelings were you experienced?
Geoff:A big one was frustration. I'd getting up in the morning thinking, what am I going to do today that's worth doing? Sometimes you do something which is enduring in the long term. But I was kind of at a moment when I was thinking, what am I going to do that has got any kind of sort of life sustainability in terms of what it's going do for other people. So frustration was a big one.
Geoff:I was, to be honest, I was also a bit isolated. I was working and leaves the rest of my team were all in other parts of the country, which is quite difficult. So yeah, I suppose yeah, frustration and isolation would be two of the big ones.
Meg:Okay. And you mentioned the word creative when you talked about that time when things were good. So tell me a bit more about that and why that is important to you.
Geoff:I'm incurably curious. I'm curious about other people. I'm curious what other people can bring. I find other people's ideas very enriching. And I find when I'm at my most creative is when I'm working with other people, and together we are drawing out ideas and giving them life and giving them expression.
Geoff:And I think one of the things that got me thinking about coaching, for example, having seen other coaches work, was seeing them help people unlock their potential. And I think most of the people who worked with me as subordinates when I managed them either got better reports than they had than they'd had previously, or they got promoted. And so that desire to invest in people and see other people succeed I think was a strong motivator.
Meg:Okay, that's really interesting. So given that you've talked there about unlocking potential, are you up for a little activity?
Geoff:Go on.
Meg:Okay, so it's a little activity that we could just try out. And it's called out my best. All I need you to have is just have a sheet of paper, if that's all right, or somewhere, or a piece of paper, and you can just draw a stick person in the middle if you can.
Geoff:Happily, it's not video, so you can't see my drawings. That's good.
Meg:It's alright. Don't worry. I just want you to draw a stick person. I'm not gonna draw yeah. And I'm not gonna ask you to show a bit, so you'll be fine.
Meg:The little stick person just, you know, is is gonna represent you. So if you put you in the middle, it's kind of got the me t shirt on it.
Geoff:Okay.
Meg:I want you just to think back to a role where you were at your happiest and where you felt really energized and proud of the work that you were doing. Okay, so I just want you sort of to take yourself there and imagine yourself in that place or whichever role that is that you're thinking of.
Geoff:Okay.
Meg:And then I'm just gonna ask you some questions and I want you to then just write down on that piece of paper anything that kind of comes up for you. So I'm going ask you some questions and you could write down things that are connected to you, I. E connected to the stick person, or it might be about the environment around you in terms of what was happening around you that made it a really positive time.
Geoff:Okay.
Meg:Okay. So first of all, what was happening that made it a really positive experience for you?
Geoff:So I'm thinking about where I am. In quite a nice community center in North London.
Meg:Okay.
Geoff:And I've got about 100 people in a room. And I'm explaining to them plans to change delivery of support from government to asylum seekers and refugees. So what's what's making this interesting or important to me? The subject is something worth doing, talking about supporting some very vulnerable people. And the audience, through about a 100 or so people, Some of them have got expertise which roughly overlaps with mine.
Geoff:Others have complementary expertise. There's legal experts, people who are experts in silent policy, for example. And I'm standing before them to some extent as an expert, but also aware that there are gaps in my knowledge that that they have that I don't, which theoretically I don't need. But in practice, as far as they're concerned, they have a range of questions, and they will expect me to find the answers to them, even if they're not necessarily within my sphere of expertise.
Meg:So that was what was around you. Anything else that made it a positive experience?
Geoff:So what I think what's making it a positive experience is I've got the chance to use a range of skills that I like using. It's an opportunity for me to make some new discoveries, and to make some potentially to make some new professional friends. The headline job was, can you explain what's going to change? And then the subtext, because I had various people who had wanted various things out of this meeting, can you get on the right side of some of these people? If you can actually make some new friends out of these stakeholders, then that would be very good all round.
Meg:Right. And what skills you mentioned the skills there. What skills were you using when you were thriving?
Geoff:Skills were they using. That's a good one. Okay. So I'll take the first one. The first one was very, very thorough preparation.
Geoff:I never stood in front of anybody without really doing my homework. So the homework was around the subject, but also around the audience. So I spoke to a number of people said, who's going to be there? What are they going to be worried about? What are they going to be looking for?
Geoff:My presentation skills were quite good. Various people complimented me on them. So that's just an objective assessment. I think I was quite I was always quite good at taking a difficult concept and explaining it in terms of people could understand. I find that very fulfilling.
Geoff:But also, I was pretty good at taking ideas and then grounding them in the practical day to day experience of the people who are going to be affected by them. And for me, that was very important. I was confident in a sense. I used to have this joke in the civil service. If I know one more thing than the person I'm talking to, that makes me an expert.
Geoff:I like that. So there was that. But also, as I say, was the interest and the cure and the curiosity. And I was I was confident enough to say to people up front, look. I'm gonna do this presentation.
Geoff:If you've a question as I'm going on, you can ask as I go. So I was kind of sharing expertise
Meg:Yeah.
Geoff:As we were going along. And and I didn't mind, for a time, asking the audience. So at one point, somebody asked some kind of legal question, which I had no idea about. So I said, well, I'm sure there's somebody who knows the answer to that. But sure enough, somebody did.
Geoff:And so engaging the audience. So it became it became, if you like, to some extent, I suppose what I was saying earlier, it became a a co creative process in which I can probably contribute most of it because that's what come to listen to. But also other people had a contribution to enrich the whole experience for everybody there.
Meg:Right. Brilliant. So what did you learn about yourself from that experience in that role?
Geoff:What did I learn about myself? I was quite happy to take risks. Potentially it could have been quite combustible, should we say, given the sensitivity of the subject we're talking about, which involved managing people's expectations and people and emotions. I was able to focus my curiosity, I think, is something that I learned. And probably also learned that I was quite good at presenting things which three months ago I knew nothing about.
Meg:So risk taking, managing emotions, focusing your curiosity and those presentation skills and capabilities really. From that experience, what have you used from that experience now going forward in your career?
Geoff:That's an interesting one, mate, because the big one I haven't used is the presentation and group management skills, because I don't do very much of that. Occasionally done that since I've gone freelance, I've really enjoyed it. But there are some I think there are some underlying things which just work in different contexts, particularly the one to one context. And that is being genuinely interested in people, genuinely
Meg:So that curiosity has still stayed there.
Geoff:Yeah. And I suppose the other word is respect. It's respecting people's expertise and being wanting to learn, but also really wanting the best for people. Mean, that some of the I mean, some of my colleagues found some of the people in the room, hard work for one reason or another. But I had a chance to meet some of them individually.
Geoff:Some of them invited me back to some of their home offices to tell me more about what they did and the kind of experiences they're dealing with. I mean, some of them are just absolutely horrendous. I remember one person I met, and their organization supported people who were victims of torture. And I mean, it's not surprising they were passionate about what they wanted and how they wanted to support people. They just Their experience had really shaped the way they saw the world.
Geoff:And I think that's something else that I took from that, is understanding trying to understand the way other people see the world is very important to provide support and help to them, see the world through their eyes and then to try and work with their view of what the world looks like and why.
Meg:Yeah. And so seeing those different perspectives and being able to use that. Yeah, lovely. So that part there, that curiosity, understanding things from different people's perspectives, I'm hearing that was a big motivation from you, being able to understand that. In terms of now, where you are now, what learnings have you now put into practice in your current world of work?
Meg:So I'm thinking back to that good time, what were you at your best? What was making you thrive? And how that led you to what you're doing today?
Geoff:The willingness to take risks. Obviously, if you change career, you're taking a risk. I think I learned that if you do your homework, you do your preparation, if you're good at what you do, if you can match what you have to offer with what people need, then there are always people you're going to find to work with in some way or another. Now for me that's worked out as a freelance coach. It could have worked out in some other ways.
Geoff:So that is some learning about myself I've taken forward. The skills, I think that the presentation skills still work because I still have to explain concepts to people. If I'm coaching people individually, they'll want to know I'm working some kind of methodology or approach with them. Sometimes you'd have to just explain where that came from, what the idea is, what we're trying to achieve through it. And I think particularly with coaching, the idea that you take ideas and then you ground them in people's experience, because obviously that's a fundamental part of coaching.
Geoff:And that's a big motivator for me and something that I very much apply myself to.
Meg:And that curiosity about people isn't it? That unlocking potential is what has then from that role that you've then taken forward. That's great.
Geoff:I'm just wondering Meg, am I interviewing you or are you interviewing me?
Meg:It's a little bit of both isn't it? But yeah. It's just that and that just gives you a bit of a flavour of the kind of activities that I might do or the kind of questions you know I might ask you when people are faced with different challenges that they're in to help as you've just done really, evaluate what was going on and what was happening and what made that a great experience and what about it was good to help someone recognise what do they need to thrive and flourish in their career or in their job role. Maybe then looking back at that what's missing from maybe where they're at right now if something's not quite right. Thanks for sharing.
Meg:Thanks for doing that.
Geoff:Thank you. Thanks for the questions. And I'm sure as people are listening, they'll be kind of reading themselves into the same kind of situation.
Meg:Absolutely. And thinking about those similar kind of questions. Yeah.
Geoff:So thinking about clients that come to you on professional basis, and they've said, can you help? You talked about some things you do with them. What kind of outcomes do you see? What do people say about how you've helped them?
Meg:Yeah, I think in terms of outcomes, it's a range of different things. I think some people clearly, if I've been mentoring them and they leave with those updated career tools that they're really proud of, they leave with that CV document that they have a really start to believe in themselves. Genuinely, I see that process as a confidence builder, you know, because often I'll be pulling out of them their successes, their achievements, their stories, and helping them craft that into their document that hopefully then they feel really proud of and think, actually, I'm actually quite good. I'm great at what I do. And I love seeing that increase in confidence and self belief.
Meg:I think others, they have some practical tips that they can reuse again and again. So they've got like some things that they can put in their memory bank every time that they're going to go through that sort of transition again in the future, they can reuse some of the skills that they've learned. And I think some of them will leave with that clearer direction and focus of like, you know, this is where I'm heading, this is what I'm working towards, and this is my plan of how I'm going to get there.
Geoff:Yeah and that's a great insight. Support you give to somebody in one transition, the things they learn from that, they can then reapply in the future. So have you got a favourite quote or something that someone has said to you that's really stuck at you and you thought, that was great to hear that from that from a client.
Meg:I'm really proud of some of the people. I take great pleasure I think in seeing my clients achieve and succeed no matter how I've helped them. So I know I'm very much a small part of that success, but I love it when I see them posting about that job success on their LinkedIn profile or that promotion that they've got. I love that. And I think typically people would say, whenever I look at feedback that I've got, there's always one word that comes up again and again and that is that I'm a warm person and I think that is something that I've now sort of embraced because I think it's a word that I connect with and I think that suggests that I make people feel comfortable.
Meg:In terms of testimonials, I've got very different testimonials. I think some people just do like the guidance that I've given them, given them. And then other people appreciate the space and the time.
Geoff:Somebody's listening to you today and thinking, I need a bit of that warmth. How can people get in touch with you?
Meg:Get in touch with me at my website, which is medburtoncoach.co.uk for my career coaching. I've also got obviously my Cube learning development site for the leadership coaching, for the career coaching and mentoring is megburtoncoach.co.uk.
Geoff:Great. Okay. And we will put links to that in the show notes. Just thank you. Concludes, Meg.
Geoff:Have you got a top tip or a thought you'd like to leave our listeners with?
Meg:I just think if you are going through any kind of career challenge or career transition, whatever it may be, whether, you know, that's career starter or a career enhancer in the middle looking for promotion, or even right through to a career closer going into retirement. A career coach can help support you through those different career transitions. So I would say don't delay, Get in touch with somebody as a career coach and start making that progress and have someone as that sort of support, an ally to help you through.
Geoff:Thank you so much for your time. It's much appreciated. And thanks very
Meg:much for having me.
Geoff:All the best. Bye.
Meg:All right. Thanks, Jeff.
Geoff:Thank you for listening to the Coaching York podcast. I'm Jeff Ashton, and I edit and produce the show. Coaching York is a social enterprise, a community of coaches serving the communities of York, the counties of Yorkshire and beyond. We provide coaching, mentoring, training and coaching supervision on a commercial and time gifted basis. If you want to know more about our offers and services, or if you want to join our expert, generous and creative community, find out more about us at coachingyork.co.uk.
Geoff:That's coachingyork.co.uk.
