Confidence: Taming your inner imposter
Welcome to the Coaching York podcast Reloaded. We've moved to a new hosting site and improved the audio quality and editing. Since we originally launched in February 2023, we've attracted new members and followers. So as well as bringing you new material from our wider Coaching York membership, we'd like to take this opportunity to re share some of our earlier content that you may have missed. In this episode, recorded in May 2023, we talk to Jeremy J Lewis about how to meet head on the challenge of our inner impostor, that feeling that there's a mismatch between what you're being asked to do and what you feel able to do.
Geoff:Jez draws on a model from coaching expert Peter Hawkins, and along with my co host Fiona Smith, we draw from our past and present work experiences to show you how you can put this learning into practice, wherever you are.
Fiona:So Geoff, how many times in your coaching conversations do you hear people talk about things like, oh, I feel a bit of a fraud, I feel a bit of an imposter in this role. People are gonna suddenly realize that I'm not quite up to it and kind of catch up with me. I hear things like, oh, well, I've got some ideas, but I'm not sure people will like my ideas. I don't know if they're good. I don't know if they're right.
Fiona:Hear anything like that?
Geoff:So are you talking about the little voice in my head as I'm preparing for a coaching conversation or are you talking about what clients say to me?
Fiona:In this instance let's focus on the clients.
Geoff:Fair enough. Okay so the short answer to that is a lot. Hear that quite a lot. It's often difficult, I think, for people, particularly people in leadership positions, even very senior leaders, to find a context in which they can feel safe sharing and talking through what they can feel to be a mismatch between what they're being asked to do and what they feel capable of doing. And I found that one really helpful way of exploring that tension in a creative and a constructive way is to talk about confidence.
Fiona:So, yeah, really interesting area to explore. And actually, what we wanted to do with this was something a little bit different. And we want to start introducing our listeners to some of the coaches who form part of the Coaching York Network. Today, we've got Jess Lewis with us and we wanted to to bring Jess Lewis in and and build this conversation around confidence. So Jess, first challenge to you is about 30 can you tell us a bit about you personally, professionally, geographically, whereabouts you are?
Jez:Okay, thank you. Hi, I'm very pleased to be here. Personally, professionally and geographically. Okay, so personally I'm Jeremy Lewis, people call me Jez as you've done and that's fine. I enjoy hiking, running, playing golf badly.
Jez:I don't like football but I sport Leeds United that's supposed to be a joke. I love music and going to gigs. I practice Tai Chi. I'm a trustee for a local arts charity. Geographically I live in Ilkley with my wife, teenage twins and two cats and professionally, I had a career in financial services and then organisation development consulting.
Jez:I'm now a self employed accredited executive coach and coaching supervisor. I deliver all my coaching online, which is mostly coaching senior managers directors and chief execs and corporate leadership teams and I provide what I like to think is value for money coaching supervision for self employed coaches as well.
Fiona:Brilliant. Wasn't exactly timing that but you know thank you for that great summary intro there. So thanks for joining us today. So thinking about the whole subject of confidence, can you tell us a bit about where the issue of confidence comes up for you in your own coaching practice?
Jez:Sure and thanks very much for having me on as well. Yeah in my experience confidence comes up hiding behind other symptoms. Know we have often hear the term imposter syndrome my impostor's cropped up' things like that. And the imposter is masking issues surrounding power and confidence typically or influence how you find your voice. Particularly I experience it in my clients where someone's recently been promoted or taking on some additional responsibilities for example.
Jez:And part of my coaching philosophy is about whole life learning. Who we are today is a product of where we've come from, what we've learned about ourselves, how we've reflected on that and all that helps us frame who we are now and get a deeper understanding of who we are now and where we're heading and then how to get there. So I kind of believe that there's possibilities in the past, the present and the future and so I often invite my coaching clients to explore the past, the present and the future. So when it comes to sources of confidence they come from the past the present and future as well. So for example you might have had some bad experiences in the past when trying to influence people at work, you get knocked back and you start to lose your voice yeah.
Jez:In the here and now you can see other colleagues around you who seem more graceful, you know, like a swan, whether you're kind of scrabbling around under the water just trying to keep afloat and you're kind of going how do they do that? How do they carry themselves so with such presence? You know, and looking into the future you just can't see yourself as ever being able to be as influential as they are. So the imposter jumps into your head to protect you and that fear of failure literally stops you in the tracks. It stops you from even trying and that imposter takes over rather than trying new things out trying to work on you know remembering what's worked in the past how we can show up in the present and how we can develop ourselves for the future.
Jez:But that's the kind of the kind of symptoms that I see that I think the underlying issue is confidence.
Fiona:Yeah, I mean listening to that, can certainly associate with that, know, can sort of it brought to mind things, you know, in the past where I've sort of sat in very similar situations to that. So when we think about then when you're working with your clients on this and working with them on issues around confidence, Interested to talk about the approach that you've taken, how you work with them on that and just to delve into that in a little bit more detail.
Jez:Yeah sure. I guess it was probably about a year ago I came across a particularly useful framework for exploring the sources of confidence. And this model which is, by Peter Hawkins suggests that there are three sources of confidence and they are authority, presence and impact. And curiously each one relates to the past, the present and the future, which is why it resonated with me as something to try because it kind of fit with my philosophy of exploring possibilities in the past, the present and the future. So let me just outline it for you a little bit.
Jez:Authority is the first one. Authority is a source of power, a source of confidence, a source of power, source of influence, a source of all these things. But authority comes from what or who you know, so what you've achieved in the past and you kind of embody it in how you carry yourself. It gives you professional confidence to be qualified in your subject matter for example, but if you over rely on it it's not influential. So when you fail to get your expertise used you feel kind of your confidence gets knocked you say well I know why won't they listen to what I'm talking about I've got professional authority in this area so whilst it can be very useful it can be it can get in the way as well.
Jez:So that's authority and that's a source of confidence that comes from the past it's what we know and who we know. The next one is presence and presence is about the here and now. It's the presence, the presence is there in the words isn't it? It's about being fully present in whatever you're doing. It's about how you relate well with other people.
Jez:It's about reading the room. It's all those sorts of things about how we show up. Some people might refer to that and how we show up at work every day in every meeting fully present and ready to contribute. And the third one which comes from the future is impact. And impact is that future oriented part of confidence and influence.
Jez:People who have high impact can really shift the energy in a room. We hear sometimes in organizational context of winning hearts and minds and that's the kind of thing we're talking about with impact. It's really connecting with people and making a shift, making a shift intellectually and emotionally. And what that requires is real authenticity in how you speak to people, directness, candour, showing a bit of vulnerability. It's kind of embodying that presence but with a future orientation to how can we make things better, how can we shift things and move things forward?
Jez:So authority, presence and impact are these three sources of confidence. And what I do in my coaching is invite my clients to explore each of those sources. You know often people are strong in one or maybe two and the other one or maybe a couple of them might need some work. I think it's powerful. I find it particularly powerful because it focuses on both where you are strong so you can keep working on that but also where you might need to pay more attention.
Jez:And the real trick is balancing all three. It's no good just relying on your authority for example, or just relying on being a really good networker in the moment without moving things forward for example. It's about balancing all three dimensions.
Fiona:Yeah, And it's, I think it's one of those models where you can think about there's many different situations. So is it a new lead or is it someone moving into a different role or things like that where so much to draw on from there. And that should be, I think it'd quite good just between the three of us, just have a little bit more of a conversation about that and bounce around some thoughts on that and how it can be applied. So Jeff, listening to all of that, what are your thoughts on the model and any comments, reflections on it?
Geoff:I used to have a colleague and when he was really impressed either with a person or an idea, he would describe it or them as highly plausible. I think I know how cool it is, a highly plausible model. I think what I like about it is it's very intuitive, so anybody can relate to the idea of past, present, and future, I'll be interested to think about the power of this as Jez was talking about how how the three elements fit together. I suppose that the first thought that came into mind actually was something I've been just reminded me of something I've been reading recently about daydreaming, where the person who's writing this book who said, when you daydream, where are you? Do you daydream about your past?
Geoff:Do you fully thinking about what's happening in the moment? Or are you daydreaming about the future and what are you doing in that future and who are you? I thought it was a really, really interesting idea and I really relate to what Jez was saying about that there is a tendency either to emphasise our thinking in terms of one of these dimensions. Is it historical present or future? And yeah, how we can just just recognising the fact that these three dimensions are all working at the same time, just that recognition itself is powerful.
Geoff:But then how you can bring those three together in a focused and constructive way to bring some kind of change, new insights or in this case greater confidence. Very interesting to hear how that works in practice.
Jez:Fascinating. You've just reminded me, this is really random, it might have been on the Fast Show or something like that, some comedy program where there was a character who was nice but dim. Do you remember Tim nice but dim? Yeah, I remember. And he was really present in the moment, really related to people, you know, it was just just there but not moving anything forward at all.
Jez:All he had was the present moment. It's like oh nice to be here, very nice, very good, thank you, yes, very helpful' but not helpful at all because there was no impact. So it's about balancing all three, know, you've got to be present. People often talk in work contexts about how you show up is really important, Yes it is, but if you haven't got the authority and you're not moving things forward then it's not useful at all.
Fiona:It's interesting isn't it around, I'm just thinking linked into, Jack's comment about the daydreaming thing as well. It's about building awareness, isn't it, with the client? So yes, all of this is going on and that's reality. But actually using something like model or using the daydream example, just to ask the question of, well, what state are you in when you daydream? You don't think about it, do you?
Fiona:You just you do. Actually, stopping to build that awareness and think about how you can learn from it is is the really powerful bit. And I guess to that point, actually, it's there's a case that isn't a jest that you could talk us through a little bit which will illustrate this and bring it to life even more?
Jez:Sure I recall a client I've worked with for a couple of years in fact we just finished towards the back end of last year But a couple of years ago I was coaching her she was in an assistant director role in a large organization and she'd been given the opportunity to act up to an interim director role and she had real challenges with her impostor her confidence her influence. She was basically asking herself who am I to contribute at this level? And we initially had coaching for about six months. She'd been given the opportunity to apply for the role, the director role permanently, which would have happened around the middle of that six month period. So we had three months trying to get her to demonstrate and feel confident in role and then three months if she got the job to help her settle into that role as well.
Jez:So we covered lots of things I didn't just use this model you know clearly that was a long term engagement so six sessions once a month for six months. However, I really remember using the model specifically she had an assumption she was carrying this assumption that more senior colleagues the other directors around her were adding value merely by the fact that they were more experienced than her. So it was she was relying on their titles, their authority if you will they are already directors. So she had this real assumption that their authority meant that they were adding value. And as we explored her sources of confidence, she realized that she was having an impact and the impact was her strength.
Jez:She was adding value where someone's weren't and she did that by being really present and really tuned in and really focused on the future. So whilst her imposter was telling her I haven't got the authority, the reality of the situation was she did have presence and impact. And the outcome for her was that she she got the director role after three months and I continued to coach her. And just towards the back end of last year she got promoted again to a strategic director level. So she'd gone from being an assistant director now strategic director on the corporate leadership team in less than two years, which is fantastic.
Jez:So I really think of her as one of my one of my greatest coaching outcomes. The coaching helped her achieve her career goals and that impossibly you know we've really tamed her imposter and thinking around these sources of confidence was pivotal in helping her make that shift.
Fiona:It's really interesting And what when when you were working with her and and you'd worked in those initial stages around actually helping her to get that insight and understanding, what was it that that how was it that she then took that and worked with it to start bringing about change for herself?
Jez:Well, I have to say she was probably one of the best coaching clients I've ever had because whenever we talked about some actions that she was gonna have a go at and she'd come plan some actions for herself, my gosh, did she go and do them? You know, sometimes as coaching we get people come back after between sessions and we know as coaches, do we not? He says, turning to Jeff Fiona here, that sometimes people come back, haven't really done that yet. I haven't got around to that yet. So you're having this whole conversation about, oh, I wonder what's getting in the way, what's really happening, and you feel like you're treading water a little bit.
Jez:This client was completely different. She would say, I'm going do that. And she'd come back and say, I've done that, and it really worked. So what next? Where next?
Jez:So I really got this sense of commitment to change, really wanting that role. And it was a genuine impostor that was in her head going, don't try, you'll get knocked down, you'll get knocked back. Who are you to leave, who are you to be in this position? And by shifting action, making behavioural shifts, sharing models like this, working through them, taking action, it all just started to fall into place. So you know sometimes we just have a really ideal client that's up for change that is great at being coached, at taking action and trying things out and she'd come back and say and start to have for example a genuine discussion about, her peers in that in that group seeing that you know perhaps they're over relying on their authority in that situation, and not being as impactful And not only did she make an impact in that group and obviously now at strategic director level, she started coaching and working with those other members of staff, those other directors.
Jez:She nurtures them as well so I mean she's really turned into a fantastic asset and, influential member of the leadership team. Like all coaching there's two aspects to it, aren't there? There's reflecting on what's happening and being up for making a change and then going for it and that's what made the difference I think.
Fiona:That's really interesting. Geoff, any thoughts from you or questions for Jess or anything?
Geoff:I was wondering about a little bit more about this idea of how someone compares themselves with other people because we all do that in our professionalised whatever kind of organisation we're in. Conversation did you have with your client to help her think about how she was making these comparisons between herself and other people? What kind of yardsticks she was using? And what kind of general principles do you think there are around that that, other listeners could find helpful taking into their own working lives?
Jez:That's a great question. I'll talk about a different client actually if I may, because when I was thinking about what how we might talk about this model today that idea of seeing someone else and seeing them like a swan and while you're scrubbing around under the surface that I mentioned earlier, that came from a different client conversation I had, where someone used that precise metaphor saying I see this other person and they're like a swan and I just I feel like my debt, I'm just struggling to stay afloat. So we talked around that and I hopefully I helped him reframe, that perhaps everyone's just doing the best they can with the information they've got and he resolved to go and have a conversation with that person and oddly enough his colleague said I see you as this one and I'm the one that's scrabbling around and they had a really genuine authentic conversation and agree to support each other going forward in the workplace and keep having a coffee every now and again and keep having a chat about how they're getting on, how they're managing to be influential, so on and so forth. So those perceptions, perhaps they're not real and if you can have an authentic genuine conversation with a peer, you might just find out that hey, we're all doing the best we can and perhaps if we support one another and that's presence and impact, absolutely presence and impact in, as an exemplar, you know, because, again that client, has come back and made huge shifts in taming their impostor, taming that voice in the head that says other people are better than this than I am.
Jez:What do you think Jeff? I mean have you, what's your take on that?
Geoff:Yeah I think that's very interesting because in the course of my working life and I do remember having conversations with some really quite senior people in different organizations who on the their public persona was this incredibly confident together impactful individual, wonderful CV, you know, great contacts in terms of, you know, who they saw, who they would be associated with. Then you talk to them in private and they would just unpack some of the things that they're worrying about and I would sit there and think are you the same person? Is this the same person that I saw up on the stage or running a meeting? So it's a fairly common thing and one of the things that often came out in conversation was how they compared themselves to other people and not just people who were senior or who were peers but also people who were theoretically junior to them who made them feel insecure or inadequate. And they were just kind of sort of emotional buttons that particular individuals would tend to press with you.
Geoff:And would listen and I think I wish I really knew what to do with a conversation like this. And I've been trained as a coach. I would now know what what to do with it. But these these different these different levels of comparison I found were really interesting in terms of what it was. What made somebody feel insecure or lacking confidence?
Geoff:So looking at other people's success would be one but also looking at other people's personas and thinking well there's a characteristic this person has that I don't feel I have and that makes me feel insecure I've got might have a great way of hiding it but it's still going on and it's still undermining potentially what I may or may not do in my organisation with my colleagues.
Jez:Comparing to the model what you're talking about there is that impact it's that candour getting through the persona to the real person and the close, you know, the more we can be authentic and candid and direct in our communications, the more impact we'll have.
Fiona:And listening to what both of you are saying there is it's just you know, to me really highlights a bit about the the power of the the assumptions that we make about other people and comparing ourselves to those other people in this kind of avatar that we've built of them that's so well, it's a bit like the iceberg model, isn't it? We only see or the swan model, we only see that one tiny bit and we build this whole persona around it and often compare ourselves quite unfavorably. It's that power, isn't it, of those few questions that start to dig, that start to push below that, that start to challenge those assumptions that can bring about such a powerful change. One of the things that really made me think about, it was Jess, when you were talking about those two colleagues who got that better understanding of each other, I think, well, number of examples actually from when I've done group coaching work and actually the power that's come there from people getting that insight into one another. And the number of times people go, Oh, you've got that problem too.
Fiona:Or, Oh, you feel that as well. The impacts on someone of realizing that they're not sitting there alone as the only one with any doubts or uncertainties, I think it is amazingly powerful.
Jez:Absolutely, comes back to what Geoff said at the start about that feeling it's safe to speak, feeling that you're safe to speak up. It just starts with that question how do you do that? It's offering a bit of your own vulnerability to a colleague saying how do you do that? I'd really like to know how you do that and it all comes crumbling down that we're all just doing the best we can. There's no master plan.
Fiona:And I guess that's the difference isn't it? If you sit down, they're difficult conversations to have and the difference is you sit down with a coach where there's no agenda, there's no need to be anybody but yourself. And that's where you can start to unpick some of that stuff that helps you to have the confidence to share those vulnerabilities.
Jez:And a coach can help you find the courage to go and give it a go.
Geoff:So can I just ask you about then, Jess? So this is thinking about the future impact. So you've had a conversation with the client. They've got a better awareness about who they are, how they sit in relation to colleagues. They've identified their impostor.
Geoff:And then they got to that point where they're studying, right, I'm going to do something different or I'm going to take a chance or a risk in that dimension of confidence. What are the kind of things that particularly help people to take that step to make future impact?
Jez:That's a good question as well Geoff. If people find it really struggling to find the courage to try it I will try and explore with them what's you know what's the worst that could happen because this is a genuine question I call it the Doctor Pepper question from the advert and I remember that Doctor Pepper advert what's the worst that could happen? That was their catchphrase at one point not in a flippant way in a genuine authentic way what is the worst that could happen here? Because if we explore that and there is a career limiting impact of trying something different then hey guess what don't do it right we've got to find another way to try moving things forward. However more often than not when people really unpack that question in my experience what's the worst that could happen well actually there's enough trust in this relationship to have one of these conversations so I'm going to give it a go.
Jez:So it's a genuine looking forward and going and exploring what are the pros and cons of trying something different out and you know making full contact with that concept and then give it a go and when people do give it a go they find oftentimes that it does make a shift but clearly you know if it's too risky if it's not safe to speak up in the organization then we've got to find an ally to work within the organization. For example, know who needs to know that you're going to try something different? Is it your boss or the sponsor of the coaching or some other support network within the organization that will have your back if you go and try something. So it depends is the cop out answer. However, in my experience unpacking what really is the worst that could happen and realising it's not actually so bad helps people go, I'm going to give it a go.
Jez:Do you find that, Fi?
Fiona:Definitely. I think there are lots of times when I do use that question or variations of what is the worst that could happen. People, because they're almost like running the story and it stops them from running that story and makes them question the story they're running. So actually, where we are now, I think that's a fantastic question actually to end this session with. So thinking about confidence and where you want to challenge yourself on that and what is the worst that could happen.
Fiona:So any final comments at all? Anything you would like to add to that, Geoff, before we close today?
Geoff:So Jez, as Fiona says, as we're coming to a close, have you got any top tips for our listeners to take away?
Jez:Yeah, was thinking if I could leave people with a question to ask themselves. And I think there's two parts to it. If the model has resonated with you as you listen to this, you probably have noticed which source of confidence is strongest for you and which others are weaker. So first have a think about the strongest source of confidence, authority, presence and impact and remember a time when you overplayed that strength what happened? What was the impact?
Jez:And then once you've had a think about that, have a think about a time when you really created a shift in someone else's thinking. How did you do that? And it just gets you thinking about how each of these dimensions, if you will, makes you feel about your own confidence, and that could be helpful to just sort of you think about what actions you can take to try and balance them out a bit.
Geoff:Okay, really helpful. Thank you very much. Just to say we'll put a link in the show notes to the model and Jess, thank you very much for joining us today. It's been great to have you on.
Jez:Thank you very much for having me.
Geoff:Thank you for listening to this edition of the Coaching York podcast. I'm Geoff Ashton, and I curate and edit the show. Coaching York is a social enterprise, a community of coaches serving the communities of York, North Yorkshire and beyond. We offer commercial and time gifted coaching, mentoring and coach supervision services to businesses and to other sectors. And if you're a coach looking to join a supportive, generous and expert community of coaching practice, find out more about us at coachingyork.co.uk.
Geoff:That's coachingyork.co.uk.
